In the Shift

14/08/2024

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 9 3
"Obedience, sacrifice and the damage (and allure) of a high-demand God"

In this episode we use the framework of 'world-building' (like we see in literature) as a way to start thinking about Evangelical/Pentecostal assumptions about reality and how they shape us. In particular we look at a world that is built on a high-demand God who needs to be pleased through obedience and sacrifice and the problems that arise with all of this. There was something so potent about this world as we understood it - it gave us confidence we were on the 'right' side, it provided us with something clear to follow and there was often a promised kind of freedom or breakthrough that was tantalisingly out of reach but available if we could just do what is required. We talk through this 'world' and how it shaped us, exploring the insecure and anxious attachment to God (and to leaders) it fostered, and how it impacts our sense of identity when we are formed in ways that constantly demand we bury our own sense of self.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

29/07/2024

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 9 2
"Growing “good” kids? Rethinking obedience, connection and healthy spirituality."

In this conversation we explore a central theme of many Evangelical/Pentecostal/Charismatic approaches to parenting over the past few decades - namely, "obedience." We discuss the ways that obedience and compliance stem from the theological paradigm that views children born as corrupted sinners along with the looming threat of hell as eternal suffering for those outside the faith. In this context, obedience and compliance become central to parenting and discipleship, and in forming spirituality for all ages. But the outcomes of this can be deeply troubling; what does this say to a kid (or an adult for that matter) about God and about what really matters in the world? This can all contribute to a loss of autonomy and connection to our own wants, desires and needs, the suppression of genuine questions, fawning and people-pleasing extolled as a virtue (especially toward parents, pastors and leaders), and a susceptibility toward authoritarian and abusive leadership. So we tackle all of this, and begin to reflect on what it might mean for healthy spirituality, and what we should do with the themes of obedience found in Christian scripture.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.
Contact via email: [email protected]
Support via Patreon: www.patreon.com/intheshift

17/06/2024

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 9 1
“On faith, kids, deconstruction and parenting”

New episode is up!! In this conversation we explore the questions that come up for us around faith and parenting and how we approach the process of discussing spirituality with our kids.

For many folk who have experienced some kind of shifting or deconstructing faith, this can feel complicated or come with feelings of pressure. What should I be telling my kids? What happens if they ask a question but I don’t have a concrete answer? Can (or should) I pass on the good without also passing on the bad? Should I pass on anything at all?

We talk our way through these questions not to offer solutions but to explore how we find ourselves navigating them at this point in our lives. We discuss what we hope for our own children, why we’re interested in having spiritual conversations with them and how that might connect to the kinds of humans we hope for them to become. And in all of this, how these conversations can be approached through the lens of wonder and curiosity, hope and invitation, rather than fear, anxiety and punishment/reward.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

27/05/2024

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 9 0
"Jane Kennedy on voice, authenticity and gender"

This episode is a follow-up to our previous episode (89) about navigating relationships post-deconstruction, and this time Shane Meyer-Holt does the interviewing! He talks here with Jane Kennedy (a counsellor who works in the field of religious trauma) about the gender and power dynamics that are at play within high-demand/high-control religious communities, and in particular she reflects on the ways in which patriarchal systems - both explicitly and implicitly - impact on what it means for women to find authenticity, to take up space in the world, and to negotiate through the complexity of friendships and relationships after faith change.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

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Jane Kennedy is a Sydney based Counsellor working on Wan-Gal land. She has lived experience of religious trauma and works with people as they go through faith transitions, leave church and/or God. This experience, still frequently misunderstood, can be life-altering. She brings language and framing for the complexities of religious trauma to the counselling space and works with other Australian therapists to broaden knowledge among those working with affected clients.

Jane has written her story, an e-book, The Sentimental Non-Believer, on Loving & Leaving God. Her mini-course, What I Wish My Therapist Knew About Religious Trauma, is a resource for therapists. A new course, Freedom from Religious Trauma, for those with lived experience will be available in 2024.

With much of her career spent in the International Aid & Development sector, Jane has a special interest in trauma-informed programming and the mental health of practitioners. Jane continues to work in this space with agency teams, navigating the impact of saviourism and vicarious trauma using radical self and collective care models.

Jane has two completely delightful adult kids, and lives with two demanding rescue cats and a cyclist who all wake her before 5 most mornings."

https://janekennedycounselling.com.au/

15/05/2024

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 9
Navigating friendship and relationships after "the shift"

In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt, we discuss the complexities of navigating relationships with those from our 'past' when we've undergone some kind of fundamental faith transition. How do we negotiate what happens when we change, when the version of ourselves that people are used to relating to has shifted, and what are the complex intersections that collide when we seek to take up authentic space in the world?

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

17/04/2024

E P I S O D E 8 8
"Making 'peace' with the past"

After a bit of a podcast hiatus, the first episode of 2024 is here! In this episode I talk through my own reflections on what it means to make some kind of 'peace' with the past - especially as it relates to a past of harmful religious beliefs and communities. This can be a complex journey, even more so when this has impacted the very core of identity formation and important relationships in our lives. This is not about moving on and forgetting, but about continuing to make space for what we feel, as well as reflecting on the importance of understanding systemic dynamics, and of cultivating levels of empathy for self and others. The hope is that this points us toward what it might look like for us to take up authentic space in the world.

Listen: wherever you find your podcasts
Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

12/04/2024

Hey you. It’s been a while. Thanks for your patience - episode 88 coming soon! 💛💚💙

22/01/2024

Still on a summer break from the podcast, sweltering in the humidity and heat, but lucky enough to wander by the sea this morning. There was a little In the Shift milestone this week as we passed by 200,000 downloads of the pod - I find that all a bit surreal for this very niche little project tbh.

Grateful that so many of you have found the conversations helpful, and I hope that we’ve managed to bring some things to the surface that need to be talked about, that invite us to question, to reflect, to change, to keep learning how to be more human, to become somehow kinder and softer as we also become more committed to the paths of justice and liberation. Thanks for listening along, thanks for those of you who support the podcast - either through Patreon or via your encouragement and engagement - thanks to for his patience with my irregular and unpredictable schedule as he freely volunteers his time to make these episodes sound good, and thanks to Shane for joining the pod and bringing so much wisdom, empathy and toastie expertise to our conversations …

Looking forward to bringing you a bunch more stuff this year. Love youse.

18/12/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 7
"Where we've been: a conversation on suffering, friendship, vulnerability and resisting hustle culture."

In this episode, Shane Meyer-Holt joins me for the final episode of 2023. This episode is an unplanned departure from our series on experience and comes after an unexpected hiatus with the podcast too. In this personal, raw, and wandering conversation, we talk through why we’ve not had an episode out in the past couple of months amidst the complexity of life and the presence of suffering and profound challenge. We also talk through the demands of hustle culture and how we care for each other in a world shaped by the internalised social and economic assumptions of what matters. And we use this to springboard into a conversation about our friendship, about how Shane and I have been present to one another through various crises and contrasting experiences of pain. This then connects to how vulnerability and empathy have shaped both the contours of our friendship, as well as becoming the central paradigm for our theology and spirituality.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

16/10/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 6
"Experiencing God (or not) - then and now."

In this conversation, Shane and I discuss the paradigms for experiencing God we used to hold and the theological shape of those paradigms. This led to a lot of energy being expended in trying to create the right conditions for 'experience', and an unspoken set of 'signs' that these experiences were being had - something that created a set of problems that we both found problematic in our life and spirituality. We then explore the ways we think about God now, how we see the God-world relationship, and what this means for how we may or may not experience the divine in the present. Finally, we undo some of this good work by throwing a spanner in the works - which means we'll need a follow-up episode to deal with all of that!

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

26/09/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 5
"(Un)Certain: Stories of Deconstruction with Olivia Jackson"

Olivia Jackson is the researcher and author of the recently published book, "(Un)Certain: A Collective Memoir of Deconstructing Faith". In this book, Olivia draws together insights and themes from more than 140 interviews of people from around the world whose Christian faith has gone through a process of deconstruction. The range of experiences, stories and reflections from "regular people" (i.e. people without large churches, book deals, social media followings, or other forms of power) offers a sense of solidarity for those who may have felt isolated, confused and alone or simply curious about their own experience and how it is or is not reflected in the experiences of others. Olivia is able to draw out a number of themes from the wide range of stories, and reflect on the commonalities (among the many differences). In this conversation we talk about her own journey of faith, the pain of deconstruction and the unravelling of certainty, the variety of causes for a shifting faith, and reflect on what this can offer those who have experienced (or are experiencing) a process of deconstruction, or who want to understand the experiences of those who have.

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

You can find Olivia's book here: https://scmpress.hymnsam.co.uk/books/9780334063636/uncertain

Contact In the Shift: [email protected]

Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift

28/08/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 4
"Experiencing God - Interpretation, suggestibility, and the harm of a withholding God"

Episode 84: In this second conversation on the complicated world of 'experiencing God', we explore the ways in which all experience is mediated, and so the meaning is thereby a matter (to some degree) of interpretation. We examine the role that suggestibility plays in certain forms of experience, and chat about the unhelpful ideas of 'spiritual hunger' or 'desperation/expectation' as keys to divine presence, and whether particular songs are 'anointed'. We also reflect on the ways we think about the relationship between God and us/world. Does God withhold divine presence and love for some kind of 'greater good', and if so, what does this say about God?

Also, I should point out that I chose this particular clip for the promo mostly because it features Shane singing, which I know he'll love.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.
Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

11/08/2023

I’m on the latest episode of Nomad Podcast which is out today - in which I had a wide-ranging conversation on power, religion, language and coercion. Thanks to the Nomad crew for the great chat! Hope it helps :)

Host of the In the Shift podcast Michael Frost is a researcher, writer and theologian. In this episode he shares from his own experience of faith and church, as he unpicks the language that has...

02/08/2023

Latest episode of the pod is out!

In this conversation with Shane Meyer-Holt we dive into the complicated world of understanding experiences of God. For some, particular kinds of experiences with God are central to their spirituality, to feelings of closeness with God, to a sense of meaning and purpose. And yet for others, the attempt to impose certain forms of experience have resulted in harm and even trauma. Some have never 'felt' what they've been told they're supposed to feel, have never sensed God in the way that those around them are apparently sensing God. Does this mean its all pretence, or am I simply being ignored by God?

For many, this just ends up as a very confusing jumble - we might have had meaningful experiences but no longer know what to make of them, or we may have had a mixture of positive and negative experiences and now we're left wondering if any of it was real at all. So this episode is the beginning of a series of conversations trying to unpick all of this and see if we can make some sense of it.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

27/07/2023

In Aotearoa New Zealand (like in other parts of the world) we’re seeing emboldened forms of racism, bigotry and prejudice at the moment, particularly against Māori. Perhaps it’s not surprising...the power of white Western society was established in tandem with the suffering of indigenous people and people of colour. Slavery and colonisation have been vital on the pathway to prosperity and power, even as the story we told ourselves was often one of benevolent victors whose civilised ways have changed everything for the better.

And now, when those who have suffered under the weight of this injustice dare to challenge the narrative and bring attention to their oppression, they have to suffer the indignity of being called troublemakers, find themselves accused of “reverse racism” or are simply being ignored and dismissed.

Christianity is implicated in all this too of course. The church and the empire went hand-in-hand... this is a reality the church cannot avoid in its own story.

The Stop Co-Governance tour by Julian Batchelor is another potent example of this. An evangelist famous in NZ Evangelicalism many years ago with his ‘little black book’ - designed to convert sinners - he’s now building his following by amplifying and manipulating the fears of Pākehā people who aren’t used to having their narrative questioned and who aren’t used to having to share power, influence and the structures of wider society with Māori.

It is racism, pure and simple.

I grew up pentecostal, and so if I was to label this kind of rhetoric and action with a word that comes from that tradition, I’d call it demonic; fearful and sneering distortions of power used to prop up oppressive systems that cause suffering, pain and trauma.

I’m aware, of course, that I have to turn attention to my own embodied life too. To ask myself challenging questions about how being Pākehā in New Zealand gifts me privilege that others do not have, and how I can participate in different ways of being in the world that open up to diversity and plurality. This is a meaningful opportunity for new forms of life and community, it is not a threat to my wellbeing.

And as someone still trying to follow the way of Jesus, this seems like it was a big part of the whole point. I think about how his vision of the world was one of liberation for the oppressed, which resulted in a kind of liberation for the oppressor. That giving up oppressive power is not only good for those who have suffered under it, it is also life-giving for those whose own humanity has been eaten away by their dehumanisation of others.

Powerful or privileged people can sadly find this too hard to accept. That’s why the rich and powerful largely found it impossible to follow Jesus – they couldn't allow themselves to see the world differently because they were afraid of what they’d lose... sound familiar?
But this moment in time does not have to be defined by an anxiety-driven resurgence of white supremacy. It can be defined by a new imagination, by seeing with curiosity and possibility instead of with fear and self-protection.

May we find curious, kind and just ways to be human together. And may those of us (Pākehā) who have benefitted from the status quo, may we learn to listen to Māori, to learn, to grow... and to change.

11/07/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 8 2
"Dr Karen O'Donnell - Trauma-informed theology and post-traumatic remaking"

Dr Karen O'Donnell is a specialist in theology and trauma. In this conversation we explore the nature of trauma and, in particular, we reflect on spiritual trauma and abuse and the ruptures it can cause to the embodied person. The field of trauma theology seeks to take the experience of trauma as a starting point for theological reflection - both in terms of critiquing the ways in which theological beliefs can cause harm, and also in terms of constructing theologies that can create room for what she calls 'post-traumatic remaking'. This conversation moves from grappling with the large scope of these ideas, to talking about the personal and very real experiences of trauma and how they impact us. Karen shares from her own experiences of grief and loss as we discuss how the theology, practices, prayers and worship of the church can either be a contributor toward harm (or even the cause of), or can help cultivate safe and nurturing communities within which we are able to rebuild a new self.

Please note as a trigger warning, this conversation includes references to various causes of trauma, including pregnancy loss, sexual assault and abuse, violence and spiritual abuse.

Karen is the author of several publications including Broken Bodies: The Eucharist, Mary and the Body in Trauma Theology and The Dark Womb: Re-Conceiving Theology Through Reproductive Loss. You can find her on twitter:

Get in touch with In the Shift via email: [email protected]

Support In the Shift: www.patreon.com/intheshift

23/06/2023

Y O U R ~ V O I C E
One of the things Marc Fennell speaks about in the latest podcast episode, as well as his doco “The Kingdom”, is his experience of being in church while everyone else appeared to having a spiritual encounter with God…. and feeling nothing.

We’re going to talk about “experience” on the podcast - because for many folk it has been complicated. Either good experiences that we no longer know what to do with, or bad experiences, withheld experiences, traumatic experiences… perhaps it was simply silence when we desperately wanted to experience God.

If you’ve got a wee story, insight or question you’d like to share - and that could also make its way into the next podcast episode - then visit the link and leave us an audio message.

Contact Michael Frost at In the Shift.

13/06/2023

Episode 80: This is a first for In the Shift - a reissue of an older conversation! But in light of more stories, documentaries, investigations and interrogations of the megachurch story here in NZ, Australia and across the world in recent months, we thought it might be helpful to reissue the first podcast episode on our megachurch series - originally aired as Episode 55 in April 2022. Shane and I began talking about this because we both had history in these spaces, and there were stories hitting the mainstream about coercion, manipulation, burnout, abuse of power and just a litany of stories of people's lives being messed up through their experience in these kinds of spaces. In particular, here in New Zealand we were responding in real time to the stories from journalist David Farrier - but we also knew that the stories he was telling were not limited to one specific context, but were endemic across a whole stream of the contemporary church movement. So we began what was going to be a short series of conversations about this, and then it turned into a rather long series of conversations about all of this. So if you're new to In the Shift and you find this convo helpful, you can wind back to episode 56 and go with us on the journey.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

Here's the original blurb:

*********

This episode is the first in a series of conversations between myself and Shane Meyer-Holt (who you may remember from way back in episode 3) as we respond to some of the deeply concerning stories emerging from megachurches in recent weeks and months. There are common themes found in the experiences of those who have suffered under the weight of pressure, expectation, bullying, harassment and abuse of power within these systems.

Shane and I have been talking about this for more than a decade, having met while in the process of trying to extricate ourselves from the problematic church structures we had been deeply immersed in since our teenage years. Since then we have both explored very different ways of engaging in faith communities and ‘leadership’. But we have also continued to reflect on those things that make megachurches (or those following that model) so potent and effective. Effective at both the glories of success and growth but also at leaving a trail of pain and trauma - while managing to keep that suffering largely silent and under the radar (until now).

This is the beginning of our processing ‘out loud’ on these issues, dealing with themes that have in many ways been woven through the In the Shift podcast from the very beginning. If you want to get in touch to offer comment, question, story, insight, or to seek a bit of solidarity and support, you can get in touch with Shane and I via: [email protected]

07/06/2023

Hey y’all. Thought it was time for a little intro if you’re new around here. This photo is of us (Shane & Michael). We’re best friends. This photo is from Shane’s wedding, and for some reason his wife tried to be in the photo too. Never mind. So, how did we get here? Well, this is a podcast that I (Michael) started in 2018 as a way to talk about shifting faith, belief and belonging. I had been through a huge personal shift - you could call it deconstruction, or theological reimagining, a falling apart and a renovation, but it also came with a profound loss of community and belonging. Having completed a PhD in theology I wanted to create a landing space for people to explore, ask questions and find new ways of being and believing. So we’ve talked about power & religion, conceptions of God & humanness, embodiment, sexuality & disability, we’ve discussed hell & heaven, consciousness & divine intervention... and along this journey I also kept examining the ways in which certain beliefs can lead to harm. And a lot of this harm had to do with power, the abuse of power, and how beliefs, systems and structures were serving that power rather than challenging it.

Then last year some awful stories started hitting the news. Abuse of power in churches in NZ (and Aus), particularly from pentecostal megachurches. Stories of manipulation, coercion, abuse, cover ups, burn out; it was overwhelming for those who have history in these kinds of communities or who still found themselves within them. So Shane and I – both having history in these kinds of spaces – began talking about this on the pod. And although the purpose of In the Shift is not primarily to be a podcast about megachurches and toxic communities, the conversations we began having last year seemed to resonate with so many people and provide a safe space for untold stories and painful experiences to come to the surface. So here we are, still having hard conversations, and with a desire to be helpful to all processing through doubts, questions, fears, the complicated histories we hold, the churches we’ve experienced for good or for bad... We hope you find In the Shift to be a kind place to land.

17/05/2023

P O D C A S T E P I S O D E 7 8
“Reframing Easter” (live recording)

This episode is a live recording from an event called "Reframing Easter" held in March of this year. Here I talk through my understanding of how the Easter story fits within the wider historical, cultural, political and religious context of its day. The imperial power of Rome, the backdrop of suffering for the Jewish people, religious leadership and belief being used in the jostling for power, status and control, and the tense and very real potential for a violent revolution. Jesus lives and dies in the midst of this moment - and the meaning of Easter can only really be grappled with in light of what's going on here. Unpacking this story can then help us to make sense of how all of this might still speak to us in the present moment. It helps us to reframe ideas of Jesus' death as "atonement for sin", and to reimagine what "salvation" looks like in contrast to the power, violence and abuse of harmful systems, beliefs and practices.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

04/05/2023

PO D C A S T E P I S O D E 7 7
“Flipping the Script”

One of the common themes of our recent conversations has been how churches have been able to co-opt Christian language and ideas and use them to enforce power, to gaslight victims, and to justify their actions as God-approved. This can often leave victims feeling confused, isolated and ashamed.

This episode is a theological exploration of how the language of sin/repentance and blessing/empowerment is used in the biblical narrative in the almost entirely opposite direction to how we see it used in the contemporary church. In the biblical narrative, confrontation of sinners and calls to repentance are directed to those people in positions of power who are abusing that power. And the language of empowerment/blessing is directed at those who have been harmed, marginalised, abused and mistreated. Ironically (and sadly) in the church, those with power often claim the language of empowerment and blessing, and the language of sin/repentance is directed at those who are already vulnerable.

This episode tracks the competing imperial and prophetic trajectories of the biblical story, and how the words of Jesus (and Paul) must be understood within this wider context.

Listen wherever you find your podcasts.

Contact: [email protected]
Support: www.patreon.com/intheshift

02/05/2023

I enjoyed being on the other side of the microphone in this interview on the Down to Earth Conversations podcast. I talk about science, evolution, suffering, our journey with infertility, faith, power dynamics and megachurches… we pack a lot into an hour! Thanks for having me Andy :)

EPISODE OUT NOW

Aotearoa New Zealand theologian Michael Frost (not to be confused with Australian theologian Michael Frost...who is also worth a follow on your socials) has a PhD in theology, an honours degree in Science, is a lecturer and pastor, and is a well respected host of the podcast In the Shift , 'for when life and faith go off script.'

Our kōrero takes many twists and turns as we talk about science and faith, Michael and his wife's 10 year journey to become parents, suffering and theology, changing beliefs, being a rainbow ally, and the church's relationship with unhealthy forms of power.

A bit of something for everyone, including a few laughs along the way.

Listen at downtoearthconversations.com or wherever you get your podcasts (link tree in bio).

09/04/2023

I wrote a thing about Easter for Newshub - if you’re interested 🙂

The beauty of Easter lies in its call to choose love, vulnerability and service over power, ego and greatness, writes Dr Michael Frost.