The Essex Boys Case Transcripts
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16/02/2025
The convictions of the two so-called Essex Boys murderers are being reviewed again.
Jack Whomes and Michael Steele were given life
sentences in 1998 for shooting dead Craig Rolfe, Antony Tucker and Patrick Tate in a Range Rover near Chelmsford.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission (CCRC)
said appeal applications had been received and a
"thorough review" was under way.
Essex Police said the case had been "exhaustively examined" both prior to the killers' prosecutions and since they were jailed.
The Parole Board approved 82-year-old Steele's
release from prison on Thursday, four years after
Whomes was freed.
"It would be inappropriate for us to make any
further comment while the applications are
under review” a CCRC spokesperson said.
The gangland ex*****ons on a farm track in Rettendon inspired the 2000 film Essex Boys, starring Sean Bean, as well as the Rise of the
Footsoldier television franchise.
Various other documentaries and books examined its links to the 1990s rave scene.
David McKelvey, a retired Met Police detective chief inspector who was involved in the original investigations, said he was "absolutely convinced"
the wrong men were convicted.
It was Mr McKelvey who arrested Darren Nicholls
in May 1996 for drugs offences, before the suspect turned so-called supergrass and gave evidence against the defendants.
The former detective chief inspector, now a private investigator, said he was contacted with new evidence about the case "almost on a weekly basis".
“Steele should never have been convicted in the
first place” said Mr McKelvey, speaking to BBC
Essex on Friday.
“There is absolutely, categorically, new evidence.
More importantly, there was evidence at the time within [Essex Police's] systems that would prove categorically who actually did kill these
people."
Despite having arrested him, Mr McKelvey said
Nicholls’s witness account contained "blatant lies". The Court of Appeal rejected both killers' bids for
freedom in 1999 and 2006, with further appeals
dismissed in 2013 and 2016.
The CCRC has reviewed their convictions before,
including as recently as January 2023, when it
concluded there was “no real possibility" the
Court of Appeal would overturn the convictions.
The CCRC, which is an independent body
sponsored by the Ministry of Justice, launches
fresh appeals when strong new evidence or new
arguments are presented.
An Essex Police spokesman said: "This case has
been exhaustively examined over the last 27
years. We will of course always work with the CCRC
and keep any new information under review."
13/02/2025
Mick Steele is to be released after Parole Board releases its decision today
15/11/2024
Essex Boys gangland killer could soon be freed after serving 26 years for underworld triple murder
A gangland killer who became synonymous with one of the country's most notorious criminal underworld murders could soon be freed from prison after telling a Parole Board hearing he is no threat to the public.
Michael Steele, 81, was jailed for life in 1998 for the triple ex*****on of three men in Rettendon, Essex.
Patrick Tate, 37, Anthony Tucker, 38, and Craig Rolfe, 26, were shot dead with a pump-action shotgun as they sat in a Range Rover.
The three - members of the 'Essex Boys' drug gang - were slain on an isolated lane near a farm in a row over drugs.
The grisly murders inspired TV shows and films including Rise of the Footsoldier and Essex Boys.
Both Steele and his accomplice alongside Jack Whomes, 63, have continued to insist that they had nothing to do with the murders.
Whomes was released in 2021 after serving a reduced sentence of 22 years.
Steele, who has served much of his sentence at Category A Wakefield Prison, West Yorkshire, gave evidence via a web link.
Steele has been granted a parole hearing in which he argued he should be freed.
A source said: 'Michael wanted to give evidence even though he has never admitted his guilt.
He knows that fact will go against him with the Parole Board despite his good behaviour in prison.
'Michael reiterated that he is not a safety threat to the public.'
Steele and Whomes' convictions were based on the testimony of supergrass Darren Nicholls, who claimed he was their getaway driver.
The notorious killings were believed to be linked to a gangland feud.
In March 2021 Whomes was released on licence and returned to his mother's Suffolk home.
The Criminal Cases Review Commission is probing the convictions of Steele and Whomes, and could refer the case back to the Court of Appeal.
The original parole hearing was due to take place in May but was adjourned.
A spokesperson for the Parole Board said: 'An oral hearing has been listed for the parole review of Michael Steele and is scheduled to take place in November 2024.
'Parole Board decisions are solely focused on what risk a prisoner could represent to the public if released and whether that risk is manageable in the community.
The Parole Board has to make a decision on whether to release Steele or recommend he be moved to an open prison within 14-days.
15/11/2024
21/02/2024
Please sign and share
Public Inquiry into the Miscarriage of Justice Involving Darren Nicholls and Jack Whomes
10/01/2024
08/11/95 Interview with Jack Whomes
08/11/95 Interview with Michael Steele
06/02/96 Call between Saunders and Essex Police
09/02/95 Call between Steele and Essex Police 1
12/02/96 Call between Steele and Essex Police 2
??/02/96 Call between Steele and Essex Police 3
26/02/96 Call between Steele and Essex Police 4
10/05/96 Call between Bird & Nicholls
10/05/96 Call between Bird & Nicholls
13/05/96 Interview of Darren Nicholls
14/05/96 Interview of Darren Nicholls
14/05/96 Interview of Wolfgang Bird
14/05/96 Interview of Russell Tate
14/05/96 Interview of Russell Tate 2
14/05/96 Interview of Jack Whomes 1
14/05/96 Interview of Jack Whomes 2
14/05/96 Interview of Michael Steele 1
14/05/96 Interview of Michael Steele 2
15/05/96 Interview of Darren Nicholls
13/06/96 Interview of Sarah Saunders 1
13/06/96 Interview of Sarah Saunders 2
13/06/96 Interview of Sarah Saunders 3
13/06/96 Interview of Sarah Saunders 4
13/06/96 Interview of Sarah Saunders 5
03/11/2023
New page
Movie Theater
22/10/2023
Some of the FB groups based on the case
11/04/2023
This gripping three-part series explores one of the most notorious multiple murders in British history, the assassination of the so-called Essex Boys in an i...
10/12/2022
20/06/2022
Billy Jasper In Court
Friday, 21st November 1997
continued ( Page 1 )
(In the presence of the jury)
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
You are still on your oath.
MR LEDERMAN:
Mr Jasper, can I first of all tell you this. I am not asking you questions at the moment with any intention of you incriminating yourself; do you follow?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
This is my first question. Are you an associate of major criminals?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Criminals concerned with major robberies?
A.
Sometimes.
Q.
Criminals concerned with drugs?
A.
Sometimes.
Q.
Drugs including co***ne?
A.
Sometimes.
Q.
Drugs involving sums of 300,000, that sort of amount?
A.
Sometimes.
Q.
Criminals who have no inhibitions about shooting each other if things fall out?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
You wrote your own statement, did you not?
A.
Yes.
Q.
At the Forest Gate police station in which you named some of those criminals?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
One of whom, do you know, has recently himself been killed?
A.
No.
Q.
You did not know it?
A.
No.
Q.
Would you prefer me not to name the names that you named?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Would it be true for you to tell me that you are frightened of them.
A.
Could say that.
Q.
And that is the reason why you do not want me to name them?
A.
Could say that.
Q.
That is why you prefer me not to?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Then I will not. You would not have described, or would you, their false involvement?
A.
No.
Q.
In a killing if that was not correct, would you?
A.
No.
Q.
Because to do so would almost inevitably mean that you yourself would be shot: right or wrong?
A.
Could happen.
Q.
And indeed --
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Mr Lederman, could you take it slower please.
MR LEDERMAN:
I am sorry. Indeed, did you express that concern in your statement?
A.
Yes.
Q.
When you were last here, we went through a map of a journey; do you remember it?
A.
Yes.
Q.
A journey which ended in Rectory Lane.
A.
I don't know the name of the road.
Q.
As a fact, please, did you twice take police officers on a journey?
A.
Once or twice.
Q.
Was it you, please, who directed them?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
And did you subsequently confirm that the directions were at your direction?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Was it out of fear that you were unwilling to admit to us that you had undertaken that journey on the last occasion you were in the witness box?
A.
You could say that.
Q.
Fear for the reasons we have already discussed?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Are you now willing to tell us whether that journey that you showed the police was a journey that in fact you had undertaken before?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
Is the answer to my question, yes, please, or no?
A.
Yes.
Q.
And so you were describing by way of pointing out the route something in respect of which you were a witness?
A.
Correct.
Q.
The car that you were in, and I am now referring to the journey you made as a witness: do you follow?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
The car that you were in, was that a stolen car?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Can you tell us please its make?
A.
A Fiat Uno turbo.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
A Fiat which?
A.
Uno.
MR LEDERMAN:
Turbo. Was it one man or two men who were in that car during that journey?
A.
One man.
Q.
Apart from one man, was there a holdall in the car?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Are you able to tell us what was in that holdall?
A.
Yes.
Q.
What?
A.
Um, sawn off shotgun and an handgun.
Q.
And a handgun. Was that a pump action shotgun?
A.
It was.
Q.
Can you tell my Lord and this jury, please, how you saw what was in that holdall?
A.
Looked in it.
Q.
Do you know whether that holdall stayed in the car throughout that journey?
A.
No, it never.
Q.
What happened to it?
A.
It was took by a person.
Q.
Where?
A.
Um, down the country lane.
Q.
Did you see where that person went?
A.
Over a gate and into a field.
Q.
Did that person return?
A.
He did.
Q.
With the holdall?
A.
With two holdalls.
Q.
With two holdalls.Had there been two holdalls before?
A.
No.
Q.
Were you able to see whether both holdalls contained anything on return?
A.
No.
Q.
Where were they put?
A.
On the floor, the passenger side, the front seat.
Q.
In what direction, sorry. Were you the driver?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
And the driver throughout?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
In what direction did you then drive?
A.
Towards, back towards Essex more or less, Woodfordway.
Q.
Sorry, Ilford?
A.
Woodford way.
Q.
Woodford.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Do you mean driving on a road called Woodford Way or going in the Woodford direction?
A.
The direction.
MR LEDERMAN:
To get it clear, on the return journey was there one other man or more in the car?
A.
Just one.
Q.
And without going into too much detail, in what area or what sort of address did you drop that person?
A.
Um, a wine bar.
Q.
Were you paid for driving that stolen car?
A.
Yes.
Q.
How much?
A.
5,000.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Sorry?
A.
5,000.
MR LEDERMAN:
When had you been asked to do this?
A.
Um, a week or less, before.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
A week, maybe less?
A.
No, sir.
MR LEDERMAN:
A week or less before, my Lord. Were you asked, and tell me if you were not please, by the man who accompanied you in the car or someone else?
A.
No, it was someone else.
Q.
Are you prepared to name that someone else?
A.
No.
Q.
Are you prepared to name the man in the car?
A.
No.
Q.
Apart from seeing two guns, did you see any gloves?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Where?
A.
On someone's hands.
Q.
Not asking you for names, okay: whom?
A.
The passenger.
Q.
On the journey out or the journey back?
A.
Both.
Q.
Or both?
A.
Both.
Q.
What sort of gloves?
A.
Hospital gloves.
Q.
Sorry?
A.
Hospital gloves.
Q.
When you set out on this journey please am I right or am I not right that you had not seen the contents of the holdall when you set out?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
When you set out, was the holdall in the car?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When did you see the contents?
A.
About half way through the journey, when the passenger got out to meet someone.
Q.
When there was a break in the journey?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
When the person went to meet someone?
A.
(The witness nodded). That is correct, yeah.
Q.
Are you prepared to tell us in what area that was?
A.
Upminster are
A.
Q.
Upminster. What time of day or night are we talking about?
A.
Round midnight sometime.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Round about?
A.
Midnight.
MR LEDERMAN:
You used the phrase "some" or "sometime"?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
We all have perhaps different meanings of that. Would you --
A.
An hour before or an hour after.
Q.
Roughly how long did it take to get from Upminster to the lane?
A.
About half hour, something like that.
Q.
So you could have arrived, would this be right or would this be wrong, at the lane at approximately midnight?
A.
Around that time.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
What did you say?
A.
Around that time.
MR LEDERMAN:
When you got into that car, having agreed to do the drive, and would you wait until I have finished the question because I am going to say something else, do you follow, did you know the purpose for which you were driving by and saying something, else -- I am perhaps interfering with my Lord's rulings. If you feel that would incriminate yourself you need not answer.
A.
It was against the law.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
I do not understand the answer, I am afraid. Put the question again and you remember that you do not have to say something which incriminates you. Put the question again.
MR LEDERMAN:
When you set out on that journey, it having been arranged approximately a week before, do you follow, did you know the purpose of the journey, and I add to that that you need not incriminate yourself?
A.
No answer.
Q.
After the man had returned when you were in the lane with the two bags did you understand from him --
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
No, that is straight hearsay.
MR LEDERMAN:
My Lord, I am sorry to trouble the jury. My Lord, in my submission it is res gestae It is an exception to the hearsay rule.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
After lunch, members of the jury, if you will. (The Court adjourned for lunch) (In the presence of the jury)
MR LEDERMAN:
Could I ask you this, please, Mr Jasper. When the man returned to the car in the lane; right? I am sorry. It is my fault. When the man returned to the car in which you were sitting in the lane.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Yes?
A.
Yeah, go on.
Q.
And then got in the car, which seat did he get in?
A.
The passenger seat.
Q.
Was there any incident that happened in relation to you, your driving, as you then went back towards Upminster over the bridge.
A.
Over the Bridge?
Q.
Do you know which bridge that is?
A.
Not off by heart, no.
Q.
How far was the lane from the bridge?
A.
Couple of minutes, a minute.
Q.
Would you be kind enough, please, to look at this plan that will be provided to you, in the jury white bundle. (Handed). If you look at page 3.Do you have page 3 in square B, you have a place called Battlebridge in Battlebridge station. Does that mean anything to you, Battlebridge? Please get your bearings?
A.
Yeah. I think so, yeah.
Q.
Do you see there is a river, the river Crouch?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Just looking at that plan for a moment, do you see if you go up something hill you get to the Rettendon Turnpike? Do you see that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Then you turn right to Woodham Road, up Woodham Road left to Rectory Lane. Now it is there that I suggest you twice took the police. Looking at the plan again and speaking and answering questions to me today do you agree that is right?
A.
Possibly, yeah.
Q.
And the bridge, the bridge there must be over the river Crouch. Are you able to help us whether it was that river or some other place or do you not know?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
However, was it anything to do with the incident. Can you help us about that?
A.
Um, didn't give way at a give way.
Q.
There was a "give way" sign?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Were you supposed to give way?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Did you give way?
A.
No.
Q.
Was your passenger happy or unhappy?
A.
Not too, not -- he weren't unhappy, just things you don't --
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Do not tell us anything that was said.
MR LEDERMAN:
Did he indicate anything to you: yes or no?
A.
Yeah.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Hearsay, Mr Lederman.
MR LEDERMAN:
I am not going to ask him, my Lord. As your Lordship knows well that I will not ask hearsay questions.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Mr Lederman, I do not know that because of the form of question, a question talking about did he indicate is another way of asking for hearsay.
MR LEDERMAN:
My Lord, what I was seeking --
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Would you just be careful, Mr Lederman, that you do not ask for hearsay.
MR LEDERMAN:
What I am seeking please to do, if I may, is not ask you, you hear this loud and clear, not ask you about what was said but asking you to recount, if you can, the events of the journey. Do you follow? Not what was said but what happened; right?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
Would you be kind enough to answer it so as to get on to the shorthand note. Do you follow what I am asking?
A.
I do.
Q.
I am asking what happened on the way back.
A.
I didn't give way at a give way sign.
Q.
Right. During this journey, are you able to describe not by what was said but by what you saw or heard, the demeanour --
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
"What you heard" was in that question, Mr Lederman.
MR LEDERMAN:
In my respectful submission, I am entitled to ask this witness whether he is able to give to this jury an impression of the demeanour of the witness.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
There may or may not be relevance to it but if there is you may ask the question which does not call for evidence of what a third person said. When you include in the question despite my express instruction to you the words by what happened, you saw or what you heard, it is a clear invitation to the witness to breach the hearsay rule.
MR LEDERMAN:
My Lord, it was not. With great respect, it was an invitation to ask the witness as to whether he could conclude as a result of what was said the man's demeanour, not the words: That was my submission.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Very well. Would you ask the question without saying what you heard?
MR LEDERMAN:
Can you answer that question?
A.
Frustrated.
Q.
Can you elaborate on that?
A.
No.
Q.
Subsequently we know that you were arrested at Forest Gate police station.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
And was it at Forest Gate police station, just answer this question yes or no, that you spoke to the police
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Now you were arrested I think on 15th January 1996.
A.
Something like that.
Q.
It is a matter of record, and arrested for another matter as a fact. Did you speak to the police about the evidence that you have given to my Lord and the jury today?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Did you then go on a journey with the police?
A.
We've already been over that.
Q.
Yes. I have to come to something else though.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Right. After the first journey, were you interviewed by the police on tape?
A.
Yeah, possibly.
Q.
On tape I believe that DC Chapel said to you that you had mentioned the 5th, the actual incidents that we are concerned with are obviously the 6th and the 7th which- is Wednesday, Thursday. So what sort of time, what sort of date would you put it: end of November, middle of November. Had you actually got into December? Think back, what sort of day or week it was, because, I do not know, you had a meeting in a restaurant or something, you know. That is what was said to you Mr Jasper and you said this :"About the end of November,something like that, not too keen on dates". Was that true?
A.
You've lost me there.
Q.
I am sorry. I am asking you, Mr Jasper, about what you said in an interview which was taped to the police as to when this incident occurred; do you follow?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
And you said in reply to the police officer making this statement, you said, "About the end of November, something like that, not too keen on dates". That is what you said to the police on 17th January. Do you follow?
A.
Yes.
Q.
We know that it is on the tape. Is it correct that this incident, as best you can remember, as you said to the police on 17th January 1995, the incident that you have described, is it correct as best you can remember that it took place about the end of November, something like that? Is that true or false?
A.
I can't remember what it --
Q.
You cannot remember?
A.
I can't remember saying that.
Q.
If you did say it, how does it in 1997 in November accord with your memory?
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
He has just said, "I can't remember". The question is talking about according with a memory. He has just said, "I can't remember".
MR LEDERMAN:
It may be my fault. Are you saying you cannot remember at all when this incident happened or are you saying you cannot remember what you said to the police?
A.
I can't really remember the actual words that I said to the police.
Q.
Fine. Can you help us please as best you can: when did this incident happen?
A.
What, talking to the police or other things?
Q.
No. The journey back with the guns?
A.
End of November, beginning of December.
Q.
Right. Do you remember today what the weather was like?
A.
Cold.
Q.
Sorry?
A.
Cold.
Q.
You have said that you are unwilling to name the names.
A.
That's right.
Q.
If I pressed you, would you be prepared to name the first name of this person?
A.
No.
Q.
Just wait there.
MR REES:
No questions.
Cross-examined by MR McGUINNESS:
MR McGUINNESS:
Mr Jasper, before today when you came into court, have you ever had any communication or contact with any of these defendants directly or indirectly?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
Not at all? Do you know them?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
Not at all?
A.
(The witness shook his head).
Q.
None of them are friends or acquaintances of yours are they?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
Have you had any communication with them while you have been in court today?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
Are you sure about that?
A.
Positive.
Q.
Do you remember just before lunch at about ten to one the jury went out; do you remember that happening?
A.
Not really.
Q.
No? You were standing in the witness box.
A.
When the jury left?
Q.
Yes, that is the time. Do you remember that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Can you remember what you did as they were going out?
A.
No.
Q.
No? Did you not look at the dock?
A.
Just looking, it's a room, isn't it?
Q.
It is a room. It is a room with a dock in it, is it not?
A.
Yes.
Q.
You know what a dock looks like.
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When the jury were going out did you look over at the dock?
A.
Probably.
Q.
Probably, and do you remember what you did when you looked over at the dock?
A.
No, just walking past.
Q.
Never mind that. Do you remember what you did when you looked over at the dock?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
You do not. You winked, did you not?
A.
At who?
Q.
At the dock.
A.
Rubbish.
Q.
Rubbish?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
You say it did not happen?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
You have told the jury about a night you went somewhere in Essex and you have had a map put in front of you. I think you still have it open; is that right?
A.
Page 3?
Q.
Yes. Before the night that you have just been telling us about had you ever been to that area before?
A.
No.
Q.
No, so this was the first time, was it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When you went there that night and you told us about being in the car with the man and going to a lane and there being a field, did you know what that area was called?
A.
After.
Q.
You knew after but did you know at that night?
A.
No.
Q.
No?
A.
You can drive from A to B and not know the are
A.
Q.
Yes, of course, but I just want to ask you whether on the night you knew where you were.
A.
I wasn't, lost put it that way.
Q.
You were not lost but you did not know the name of the area that you were in.
A.
Rettendon.
Q.
Rettendon. Did you know that night or was that something you learned about later?
A.
Within -- on the way home.
Q.
On the way home. You have told us already that you were spoken to by some policemen in January 1996; do you remember?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
And do you remember they were asking you about where you said you had been. Do you remember that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Do you remember that before you went out anywhere with a policeman while you were at Forest Gate police station you were shown a map, were you not?
A.
That is correct.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Sorry. What was that?
A.
Correct.
MR McGUINNESS:
Do you know why the policeman showed you the map?
A.
To see if I could probably point the place out.
Q.
That is right. Did you point somewhere out on the map?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
You cannot remember. Let me see if I can help you. If you turn in the white bundle that you have before you, Mr Jasper, we have at page 1, you will have to go back a couple of pages, a map showing a larger area of Essex than the one you were looking at a few minutes ago. Just familiarise yourself with that. London is in the left-hand corner, Colchester, sorry Ipswich is right at the top on the right-hand side. Have you acquainted yourself with it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Was the map that you were shown when you were at the police station something like this?
A.
Could have been.
Q.
When you were at the police station on this occasion do I take it you had read in the papers or heard on the news about the killing of three men?
A.
Say that again.
Q.
On the day that you were at the police station in January 1996 I take it that before then you had read in the newspapers or seen on the television the report of the three men being killed in a car; is that right?
A.
Yeah. I think everyone did.
Q.
Everyone had. Did you know when you read the papers where it was said that the killings had taken place?
A.
More or less, yes.
Q.
What was that?
A.
What was what? Where it took place?
Q.
Yes. What did the report say?
A.
Essex area, wasn't it?
Q.
Essex. Anything more specific than "Essex" that you remember from the reports?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
Not really.
A.
It's not something really that you dwell over. It's a natural day occurrence, in my life things like that, so you don't really dwell on them.
Q.
You cannot remember, you say, when you were first shown a map by a policeman what you did, is that right? Did you point someone out though? Do you remember doing that, pointing somewhere?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
You cannot remember. Can you find Chelmsford on that map please?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Have you got Chelmsford?
A.
Yes.
Q.
If you follow, if you put your finger on the "o" in Chelmsford, right, and you just trace down with your finger in a straight line from the "o" about half an inch, do you see the words Howe Green?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Does that ring a bell?
A.
Um, no.
Q.
No. Was that not the area that you pointed out to the policeman when he first gave you a map and asked you where the killings had taken place? Do you remember that now?
A.
Maybe.
Q.
Maybe. Do you remember being asked to describe the area where the killings took place?
A.
Maybe.
Q.
Can you remember whether there was anything close by?
A.
To where, the lane?
Q.
Yes.
A.
No, it's a garden nursery.
Q.
A garden nursery?
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
And a car sales place; do you remember that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
You do? Did the policeman before you were taken -- I will ask you about your journey.
A.
I can't remember word for word.
Q.
You have told Mr Lederman about something that happened on the way back from the lane, do you remember, about the give way sign?
A.
Yes. That is correct, yeah.
Q.
Is that all that happened on the way back or did something else happen?
A.
Phone call.
Q.
Phone call. Anything else? Did anybody get out of the car?
A.
After?
Q.
Yes. On the way back.
20/06/2022
Billy Jasper In Court
Friday, 21st November 1997
continued ( Page 2 )
(In the presence of the jury)
A.
I don't think So.
Q.
Do you remember telling the policeman that something happened on the way back?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
Can you remember telling the policeman that the man you were with dropped something in a river?
A.
I don't know about dropping it in the river because I couldn't see where the river was, if there was a river.
Q.
I am not asking. Do you remember telling the policeman before you ever went out anywhere at all that on the way back the man you were with dropped something in a river?
A.
I can't remember saying that.
Q.
You cannot remember saying that. Did anything like that happen?
A.
I'm not prepared to say.
Q.
You are not prepared to say. Why are you not prepared to tell us if the man got out of the car?
A.
Just not prepared to say.
Q.
Not prepared. Right. Can you help us as to what time of the day we are talking about when you arrived at the lane?
A.
Round about 12-ish.
Q.
Midnight?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Could you remember what day of the week this happened?
A.
No.
Q.
What night you were talking about?
A.
No.
Q.
Whether it was a weekday night or a weekend night, you could not say?
A.
No.
Q.
Can you remember the route that you and the man you say took you from the London area Upminster in order to get to the lane?
A.
Not off by heart, no.
Q.
Not off by heart. Do you remember that policeman took you out and asked you to tell them where to go?
A.
Probably, yes.
Q.
Do you remember when the policeman took you out on the route you ended up on the Rettendon Turnpike, that is a big roundabout with traffic lights. Does that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
Do you have your white binder open please at the same map number 1. Can you remember what road you directed the policeman along?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you know the A127 at all?
A.
The what?
Q.
The A127, Wanstead.
A.
Probably, yeah.
Q.
Probably. Do you know where it goes to?
A.
Is that the Wanstead Road?
Q.
Could you point it out on the map for us please.
A.
Not any good at reading maps.
Q.
You are not. Okay. Well, perhaps we can take you firstly to the roundabout, if you turn to page 3 in your white binder. You have the map that you were looking at earlier. Do you see it is in square 2B, the Rettendon Turnpike roundabout?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
As you arrived at that roundabout from the general direction of London, can you remember where you told the policeman to go?
A.
I think we went past it first. I couldn't get my bearings.
Q.
You could not get your bearings. Can you remember where you went past to?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you end up in Battlebridge? Did that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
No. But anyway, having gone past it, did you go back then on to the roundabout for a second time in the police car?
A.
I turned round.
Q.
You turned round, you got back to the Rettendon Turnpike which we can see there; yes?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When you got back to the Turnpike for a second time where did you tell the policeman to drive to then?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
Can I help you. You told him to drive up here on the A130 going towards the top of this plan. Do you remember?
A.
That's where I told them to turned round, yeah.
Q.
That is when you got back to the roundabout the second time having got it wrong the first time having failed to get your bearings. The second time you got to the roundabout you went straight up the A130 towards the top of the page. Do you remember?
A.
No, I can't remember.
Q.
In fact looking at our map you went straight off the page. Does that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
I am afraid we will have to go back, if you would, to page number 1. I want you please to find Wickford. It is quite close to the bottom of the page. I am pointing to it here, if it helps. Just about there. It is in capital letters. Do you have it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
If you see the word Wickford and you go about half an inch diagonally to the right you get, do you see the word Battlebridge?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Just above Battlebridge where I am pointing, there, the little circle in the middle of the road. That is the Rettendon Turnpike. Do you have it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
The road you can follow up with your finger, it goes past Rettendon, which is printed on the right, and you see it goes up to a place called near to Hanningfield. Do you see Hanningfield?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
We can see that there is a crossroads there. You see it where there is a road that comes across?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Do you remember that is where you took the police car, to that crossroads?
A.
Not by looking at the map I couldn't, no.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Sorry, I did not hear.
A.
Not by looking at the map.
MR McGUINNESS:
Because do you remember that you said something to the policeman? Can you remember what it was that you said. You said to him, "I remember the crossroads". That is right, is it not?
A.
Could have been but there's loads of crossroads.
Q.
Did you carry on as far as the petrol station close to a pub called the Plough; does that ring a bell?
A.
Is this before we turned round, I asked them to turn round?
Q.
This is before you asked them to turn round, that is right.
A.
Um, it's not a fixture in my head.
Q.
No, I appreciate that. Do you remember going past the crossroads and going to a petrol station by a pub called the Plough?
A.
No, not necessarily.
Q.
But in any event I think what you do remember is that you asked the driver to turn round, did you not?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
So to go back along the A130 now going south in the opposite direction, you remember that?
A.
Coming back.
Q.
Coming back. What was it you were looking for at that stage; do you remember?
A.
Um, just certain objects to get my bearings.
Q.
What sort of objects?
A.
Could be a road, could have been a slip road, could have been a lane: could have been a number of things.
Q.
Do you remember saying to the policeman, "That farm must be round here"?
A.
Well I think the policeman was saying that to himself.
Q.
The policeman was saying that but were you looking for a farm in your mind?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
Do you remember what the policeman said to you because you were a bit unsure, were you not a bit uncertain about where you were going; is that right?
A.
It was a big thing to say wasn't it.
Q.
Of course?
A.
So there was other problems in my head, not just thinking about other things.
Q.
You were thinking about other things not just this?
A.
Enough things.
Q.
Do you remember the policeman said to you he was not going to tell you where to go, he wanted you to tell him? Do you remember that?
A.
That's obvious, isn't it?
Q.
You went all the way back, did you not, for the third time to the Rettendon Turnpike roundabout; do you remember?
A.
No.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Do you remember that?
A.
No.
MR McGUINNESS:
You do not remember that. You have page 3, again our smaller map. You would have come down here, would you not, when you turned round the car, the police car that is Mr Jasper, and do you remember that this time you told the policeman to turn left and that is Woodham Road. Does that ring a bell?
A.
Not the name of the road, no.
Q.
Not the name of the road, but if you follow with your finger along Woodham Road there is a nursery. Do you see it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Nurseries.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was that something that rang a bell?
A.
Yes.
Q.
It was and if you go to the "RD" in the abbreviation for road you see that a left-hand turn is Rectory Lane. Do you see that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Does any of that ring a bell?
A.
No names ring no bells.
Q.
But do you remember going up Rectory Lane in the police car?
A.
I can't really remember.
Q.
You cannot remember?
A.
Could have done.
Q.
I do not know whether you can help us. It you were to look at that map can you point out to us approximately whereabouts the gate was that you said you stopped at?
A.
Was Rectory lane the name of the lane that we stopped?
Q.
You cannot remember?
A.
No, I can't remember the actual name.
Q.
Whatever you did stop on, take it for a moment it was Rectory Lane all right, if that is the road you went up, can you help us as to approximately how far --
A.
You are the one who is saying that is the road I went up. I don't know the actual name of a road.
Q.
Would you be good enough to take it from me for the time being that is the road that you went up in the police car; all right.
A.
That looks more like a road than a lane to me.
Q.
It looks more like a road than a lane to you. Can I ask you this then. What side of the road was the gate on as you drove up in the police car: left or right?
A.
Both sides.
Q.
Both sides. Did you stop on the left or on the right?
A.
They were both together.
Q.
Opposite each other. So you have a gate on the left-hand side of the road and a gate on the right-hand side of the road. Going back to the night that you have been telling us about that you were in the car with the man you do not want to name, when you stopped that night by the gate did you stop by the gate on the left or the gate on the right?
A.
Um, I think more so to the left.
Q.
More so to the left.
A.
You're talking of a lane about 8 ft, 10 ft wide.
Q.
Did you have to leave the road to get to the lane? Can you remember if you did?
A.
Yeah, I come off the road.
Q.
The man who got out of the car you say did he climb the gate?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Which gate did he climb over?
A.
The left gate.
Q.
The left gate. What did you do in the car, do you say?
A.
Um, turned round, waited.
Q.
And about how long did you wait for?
A.
Half hour, something like that; three quarters of an hour, no more really.
Q.
So does this mean the time now is getting on for 1 o'clock in the morning?
A.
Round about that time.
Q.
Round about that time. Was there anything close to the lane, any houses?
A.
At the bottom, yeah.
Q.
There were houses?
A.
Yes, but on the night I didn't drive down that far.
Q.
On the night you did not drive down that far. How close to the gate did you drive?
A.
Um, normal, I suppose you could say.
Q.
Normally? How close to the gate was it that you drove to?
A.
A few feet.
Q.
Could you see what was on the other side of the gate?
A.
A field.
Q.
Could you see what was in the other side of the field?
A.
No.
Q.
Are you a person whom has taken drugs in the past yourself?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Mr Jasper.
A.
Yes.
Q.
What sort of drugs have you taken in the past?
A.
I think that's irrelevant.
Q.
You do not want to tell us?
A.
I don't see what this is to do with it.
Q.
If you do not want to tell us you do not have to tell us. Do you remember that this night you are telling us about whether you took any drugs?
A.
I had a snort of coke.
Q.
You had a snort of coke. Was this before you arrived at the gate?
A.
That's right.
Q.
What about the man in the car? Did he have a snort of coke?
A.
Maybe.
Q.
Who had the coke? Whose coke was it?
A.
Passenger.
Q.
The passenger's. So he took the coke out?
A.
Yeah, he got it out.
Q.
Are you saying you cannot remember whether he snorted any of his own coke?
A.
Not prepared to say.
Q.
You are not prepared to say. Were you prepared to say when you were talking to the police in January 1996?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Did you tell the police in January 1996 whether the other man snorted coke?
A.
Yeah. He did.
Q.
He did, that is what you told them?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Is that what happened?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
He did. Did he snort once or more than once?
A.
More than once.
Q.
More than once. Did he snort before he got out of the car?
A.
Yeah, he did.
Q.
What sort of effect can you tell us does coke have if you snort it?
A.
It keeps you awake.
Q.
It keeps you awake. Were you tired?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
What was this man wearing?
A.
Tracksuit.
Q.
Is that tops and bottoms?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was he wearing upper top upper half of his body?
A.
A tracksuit.
Q.
Anything else?
A.
No, I don't think so. Gloves.
Q.
I cannot hear.
A.
Gloves.
Q.
He is gone you think for about 30 or 45 minutes; yes?
A.
Roughly, yes.
Q.
Roughly?
A.
You don't think of the time when you're just sitting there. You just wait.
Q.
I take it you were not wearing a watch?
A.
I don't wear a watch.
Q.
When the man came back where did you drive to then?
A.
Towards Woodford.
Q.
Towards?
A.
Woodford.
Q.
Towards London?
A.
More or less; not actually to London.
Q.
When you were arrested by the police in January 1996 you were arrested for something else entirely were you not?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
I think you are now in prison are you?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Were you prosecuted for the offences for which you were arrested?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Were you worried when you were arrested about what might happen to you?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
As far as you knew in January 1996 the man that you were with that night, the night you have been telling us about, was he under arrest or anything as far as you knew?
A.
No.
Q.
He was still out as far as you knew?
A.
As far as I knew.
Q.
He was not in trouble as far as you knew?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Until you told what you told the police in January had you told anybody else about what had happened this night?
A.
No.
Q.
Do you know whether the other man had told anybody else about what had happened that night?
A.
I don't know.
Q.
You do not know that he had?
A.
No.
Q.
So when you were arrested, although it was obviously something that no doubt you would not have wished to happen to you, you were quite happy that you were not being arrested for what had happened this night were you?
A.
Not necessarily.
Q.
Because this is right, is it not, Mr Jasper, you were not asked about that this night. You volunteered it, did you not? You were the first to mention it; is that right?
A.
Yes, could be yeah.
Q.
Yeah?
A.
To get an easy time from the Law.
Q.
To get an easy time from the law?
A.
But that never happened. I went to prison but I'm still here now so I haven't gained nothing out of it.
Q.
No, you have not.
A.
No.
Q.
But were you hoping that you might gain something out of it?
A.
Yeah, of course.
Q.
Of course, that is why you said what you said to the police is it?
A.
That is correct, for an easy time.
Q.
For an easy time?
A.
But I still got prosecuted, went to prison.
Q.
Went to prison?
A.
No favours. I'm still here today.
Q.
Still here today.
A.
So I'm not gaining nothing.
Q.
No because in fact after you went out with the police and after you were interviewed they never got back to you about this, did they, the police? They never asked to see you again to speak to you about this, did they?
A.
About what?
Q.
About what you told them had happened this night.
A.
That's their problem.
Q.
It may be their problem but my question is the police never got in touch with you again to ask you m after that, they did not come back to you, did
No.
Q.
That night, the night you were telling the police about, did you ever hear of anything when you were waiting for 30 or 45 with the car?
A.
Say that again.
Q.
Did you hear anything, any noises?
A.
No.
Q.
Not a thing?
A.
Not anything that sticks in my mind.
Q.
Nothing that sticks in your mind.
A.
No.
Q.
Do you know what a gun firing sounds like?
A.
Yeah. I think everyone does.
Q.
You were awake while you were in the car waiting?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
You said you did not hear any gun shots did you?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Do you remember many months ago, in fact earlier this year when you were in prison serving your sentence, were you told that there was a case going to court about the shooting of three men?
A.
I can remember reading about it that three men had been arrested.
Q.
That was after it happened, was it, while you were in prison earlier this year because you will appreciate, will you not, Mr Jasper, that a written record had been kept of the things that you were saying to the police when you were at Forest Gate police station. You knew that, did you not?
A.
Possibly, yes.
Q.
Possibly, and in fact you had made a handwritten st
Friday, 21st November 1997
WILLIAM JASPER, continued ( Page 2 )
(In the presence of the jury)
A.
I don't think So.
Q.
Do you remember telling the policeman that something happened on the way back?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
Can you remember telling the policeman that the man you were with dropped something in a river?
A.
I don't know about dropping it in the river because I couldn't see where the river was, if there was a river.
Q.
I am not asking. Do you remember telling the policeman before you ever went out anywhere at all that on the way back the man you were with dropped something in a river?
A.
I can't remember saying that.
Q.
You cannot remember saying that. Did anything like that happen?
A.
I'm not prepared to say.
Q.
You are not prepared to say. Why are you not prepared to tell us if the man got out of the car?
A.
Just not prepared to say.
Q.
Not prepared. Right. Can you help us as to what time of the day we are talking about when you arrived at the lane?
A.
Round about 12-ish.
Q.
Midnight?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Could you remember what day of the week this happened?
A.
No.
Q.
What night you were talking about?
A.
No.
Q.
Whether it was a weekday night or a weekend night, you could not say?
A.
No.
Q.
Can you remember the route that you and the man you say took you from the London area Upminster in order to get to the lane?
A.
Not off by heart, no.
Q.
Not off by heart. Do you remember that policeman took you out and asked you to tell them where to go?
A.
Probably, yes.
Q.
Do you remember when the policeman took you out on the route you ended up on the Rettendon Turnpike, that is a big roundabout with traffic lights. Does that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
Do you have your white binder open please at the same map number 1. Can you remember what road you directed the policeman along?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you know the A127 at all?
A.
The what?
Q.
The A127, Wanstead.
A.
Probably, yeah.
Q.
Probably. Do you know where it goes to?
A.
Is that the Wanstead Road?
Q.
Could you point it out on the map for us please.
A.
Not any good at reading maps.
Q.
You are not. Okay. Well, perhaps we can take you firstly to the roundabout, if you turn to page 3 in your white binder. You have the map that you were looking at earlier. Do you see it is in square 2B, the Rettendon Turnpike roundabout?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
As you arrived at that roundabout from the general direction of London, can you remember where you told the policeman to go?
A.
I think we went past it first. I couldn't get my bearings.
Q.
You could not get your bearings. Can you remember where you went past to?
A.
No.
Q.
Did you end up in Battlebridge? Did that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
No. But anyway, having gone past it, did you go back then on to the roundabout for a second time in the police car?
A.
I turned round.
Q.
You turned round, you got back to the Rettendon Turnpike which we can see there; yes?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When you got back to the Turnpike for a second time where did you tell the policeman to drive to then?
A.
I can't remember.
Q.
Can I help you. You told him to drive up here on the A130 going towards the top of this plan. Do you remember?
A.
That's where I told them to turned round, yeah.
Q.
That is when you got back to the roundabout the second time having got it wrong the first time having failed to get your bearings. The second time you got to the roundabout you went straight up the A130 towards the top of the page. Do you remember?
A.
No, I can't remember.
Q.
In fact looking at our map you went straight off the page. Does that ring a bell?
A.
No.
Q.
I am afraid we will have to go back, if you would, to page number 1. I want you please to find Wickford. It is quite close to the bottom of the page. I am pointing to it here, if it helps. Just about there. It is in capital letters. Do you have it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
If you see the word Wickford and you go about half an inch diagonally to the right you get, do you see the word Battlebridge?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Just above Battlebridge where I am pointing, there, the little circle in the middle of the road. That is the Rettendon Turnpike. Do you have it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
The road you can follow up with your finger, it goes past Rettendon, which is printed on the right, and you see it goes up to a place called near to Hanningfield. Do you see Hanningfield?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
We can see that there is a crossroads there. You see it where there is a road that comes across?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Do you remember that is where you took the police car, to that crossroads?
A.
Not by looking at the map I couldn't, no.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Sorry, I did not hear.
A.
Not by looking at the map.
MR McGUINNESS:
Because do you remember that you said something to the policeman? Can you remember what it was that you said. You said to him, "I remember the crossroads". That is right, is it not?
A.
Could have been but there's loads of crossroads.
Q.
Did you carry on as far as the petrol station close to a pub called the Plough; does that ring a bell?
A.
Is this before we turned round, I asked them to turn round?
Q.
This is before you asked them to turn round, that is right.
A.
Um, it's not a fixture in my head.
Q.
No, I appreciate that. Do you remember going past the crossroads and going to a petrol station by a pub called the Plough?
A.
No, not necessarily.
Q.
But in any event I think what you do remember is that you asked the driver to turn round, did you not?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
So to go back along the A130 now going south in the opposite direction, you remember that?
A.
Coming back.
Q.
Coming back. What was it you were looking for at that stage; do you remember?
A.
Um, just certain objects to get my bearings.
Q.
What sort of objects?
A.
Could be a road, could have been a slip road, could have been a lane: could have been a number of things.
Q.
Do you remember saying to the policeman, "That farm must be round here"?
A.
Well I think the policeman was saying that to himself.
Q.
The policeman was saying that but were you looking for a farm in your mind?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
Do you remember what the policeman said to you because you were a bit unsure, were you not a bit uncertain about where you were going; is that right?
A.
It was a big thing to say wasn't it.
Q.
Of course?
A.
So there was other problems in my head, not just thinking about other things.
Q.
You were thinking about other things not just this?
A.
Enough things.
Q.
Do you remember the policeman said to you he was not going to tell you where to go, he wanted you to tell him? Do you remember that?
A.
That's obvious, isn't it?
Q.
You went all the way back, did you not, for the third time to the Rettendon Turnpike roundabout; do you remember?
A.
No.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Do you remember that?
A.
No.
MR McGUINNESS:
You do not remember that. You have page 3, again our smaller map. You would have come down here, would you not, when you turned round the car, the police car that is Mr Jasper, and do you remember that this time you told the policeman to turn left and that is Woodham Road. Does that ring a bell?
A.
Not the name of the road, no.
Q.
Not the name of the road, but if you follow with your finger along Woodham Road there is a nursery. Do you see it?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Nurseries.
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was that something that rang a bell?
A.
Yes.
Q.
It was and if you go to the "RD" in the abbreviation for road you see that a left-hand turn is Rectory Lane. Do you see that?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Does any of that ring a bell?
A.
No names ring no bells.
Q.
But do you remember going up Rectory Lane in the police car?
A.
I can't really remember.
Q.
You cannot remember?
A.
Could have done.
Q.
I do not know whether you can help us. It you were to look at that map can you point out to us approximately whereabouts the gate was that you said you stopped at?
A.
Was Rectory lane the name of the lane that we stopped?
Q.
You cannot remember?
A.
No, I can't remember the actual name.
Q.
Whatever you did stop on, take it for a moment it was Rectory Lane all right, if that is the road you went up, can you help us as to approximately how far --
A.
You are the one who is saying that is the road I went up. I don't know the actual name of a road.
Q.
Would you be good enough to take it from me for the time being that is the road that you went up in the police car; all right.
A.
That looks more like a road than a lane to me.
Q.
It looks more like a road than a lane to you. Can I ask you this then. What side of the road was the gate on as you drove up in the police car: left or right?
A.
Both sides.
Q.
Both sides. Did you stop on the left or on the right?
A.
They were both together.
Q.
Opposite each other. So you have a gate on the left-hand side of the road and a gate on the right-hand side of the road. Going back to the night that you have been telling us about that you were in the car with the man you do not want to name, when you stopped that night by the gate did you stop by the gate on the left or the gate on the right?
A.
Um, I think more so to the left.
Q.
More so to the left.
A.
You're talking of a lane about 8 ft, 10 ft wide.
Q.
Did you have to leave the road to get to the lane? Can you remember if you did?
A.
Yeah, I come off the road.
Q.
The man who got out of the car you say did he climb the gate?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Which gate did he climb over?
A.
The left gate.
Q.
The left gate. What did you do in the car, do you say?
A.
Um, turned round, waited.
Q.
And about how long did you wait for?
A.
Half hour, something like that; three quarters of an hour, no more really.
Q.
So does this mean the time now is getting on for 1 o'clock in the morning?
A.
Round about that time.
Q.
Round about that time. Was there anything close to the lane, any houses?
A.
At the bottom, yeah.
Q.
There were houses?
A.
Yes, but on the night I didn't drive down that far.
Q.
On the night you did not drive down that far. How close to the gate did you drive?
A.
Um, normal, I suppose you could say.
Q.
Normally? How close to the gate was it that you drove to?
A.
A few feet.
Q.
Could you see what was on the other side of the gate?
A.
A field.
Q.
Could you see what was in the other side of the field?
A.
No.
Q.
Are you a person whom has taken drugs in the past yourself?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Mr Jasper.
A.
Yes.
Q.
What sort of drugs have you taken in the past?
A.
I think that's irrelevant.
Q.
You do not want to tell us?
A.
I don't see what this is to do with it.
Q.
If you do not want to tell us you do not have to tell us. Do you remember that this night you are telling us about whether you took any drugs?
A.
I had a snort of coke.
Q.
You had a snort of coke. Was this before you arrived at the gate?
A.
That's right.
Q.
What about the man in the car? Did he have a snort of coke?
A.
Maybe.
Q.
Who had the coke? Whose coke was it?
A.
Passenger.
A.
Um, normal, I suppose you could
Q.
The passenger's. So he took the coke out?
A.
Yeah, he got it out.
Q.
Are you saying you cannot remember whether he snorted any of his own coke?
A.
Not prepared to say.
Q.
You are not prepared to say. Were you prepared to say when you were talking to the police in January 1996?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Did you tell the police in January 1996 whether the other man snorted coke?
A.
Yeah. He did.
Q.
He did, that is what you told them?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Is that what happened?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
He did. Did he snort once or more than once?
A.
More than once.
Q.
More than once. Did he snort before he got out of the car?
A.
Yeah, he did.
Q.
What sort of effect can you tell us does coke have if you snort it?
A.
It keeps you awake.
Q.
It keeps you awake. Were you tired?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
What was this man wearing?
A.
Tracksuit.
Q.
Is that tops and bottoms?
A.
Yes.
Q.
Was he wearing upper top upper half of his body?
A.
A tracksuit.
Q.
Anything else?
A.
No, I don't think so. Gloves.
Q.
I cannot hear.
A.
Gloves.
Q.
He is gone you think for about 30 or 45 minutes; yes?
A.
Roughly, yes.
Q.
Roughly?
A.
You don't think of the time when you're just sitting there. You just wait.
Q.
I take it you were not wearing a watch?
A.
I don't wear a watch.
Q.
When the man came back where did you drive to then?
A.
Towards Woodford.
Q.
Towards?
A.
Woodford.
Q.
Towards London?
A.
More or less; not actually to London.
Q.
When you were arrested by the police in January 1996 you were arrested for something else entirely were you not?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
I think you are now in prison are you?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Were you prosecuted for the offences for which you were arrested?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Were you worried when you were arrested about what might happen to you?
A.
No, not really.
Q.
As far as you knew in January 1996 the man that you were with that night, the night you have been telling us about, was he under arrest or anything as far as you knew?
A.
No.
Q.
He was still out as far as you knew?
A.
As far as I knew.
Q.
He was not in trouble as far as you knew?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Until you told what you told the police in January had you told anybody else about what had happened this night?
A.
No.
Q.
Do you know whether the other man had told anybody else about what had happened that night?
A.
I don't know.
Q.
You do not know that he had?
A.
No.
Q.
So when you were arrested, although it was obviously something that no doubt you would not have wished to happen to you, you were quite happy that you were not being arrested for what had happened this night were you?
A.
Not necessarily.
Q.
Because this is right, is it not, Mr Jasper, you were not asked about that this night. You volunteered it, did you not? You were the first to mention it; is that right?
A.
Yes, could be yeah.
Q.
Yeah?
A.
To get an easy time from the Law.
Q.
To get an easy time from the law?
A.
But that never happened. I went to prison but I'm still here now so I haven't gained nothing out of it.
Q.
No, you have not.
A.
No.
Q.
But were you hoping that you might gain something out of it?
A.
Yeah, of course.
Q.
Of course, that is why you said what you said to the police is it?
A.
That is correct, for an easy time.
Q.
For an easy time?
A.
But I still got prosecuted, went to prison.
Q.
Went to prison?
A.
No favours. I'm still here today.
Q.
Still here today.
A.
So I'm not gaining nothing.
Q.
No because in fact after you went out with the police and after you were interviewed they never got back to you about this, did they, the police? They never asked to see you again to speak to you about this, did they?
A.
About what?
Q.
About what you told them had happened this night.
A.
That's their problem.
Q.
It may be their problem but my question is the police never got in touch with you again to ask you more questions about it did they?
A.
Couple of days' worth.
Q.
You were at the police station for a couple of days were you not?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
But after that, they did not come back to you, did they?
A.
No, not necessarily.
Q.
You were not arrested for anything that had happened that night, were you, or prosecuted?
A.
No.
Q.
That night, the night you were telling the police about, did you ever hear of anything when you were waiting for 30 or 45 with the car?
A.
Say that again.
Q.
Did you hear anything, any noises?
A.
No.
Q.
Not a thing?
A.
Not anything that sticks in my mind.
Q.
Nothing that sticks in your mind.
A.
No.
Q.
Do you know what a gun firing sounds like?
A.
Yeah. I think everyone does.
Q.
You were awake while you were in the car waiting?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
You said you did not hear any gun shots did you?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Do you remember many months ago, in fact earlier this year when you were in prison serving your sentence, were you told that there was a case going to court about the shooting of three men?
A.
I can remember reading about it that three men had been arrested.
Q.
That was after it happened, was it, while you were in prison earlier this year because you will appreciate, will you not, Mr Jasper, that a written record had been kept of the things that you were saying to the police when you were at Forest Gate police station. You knew that, did you not?
A.
Possibly, yes.
Q.
Possibly, and in fact you had made a handwritten statement I think, had you not, yourself, in your own handwriting?
A.
Yeah, probably.
Q.
Do you remember somebody in the prison telling you that those documents were going to be disclosed by the prosecution in this case to the lawyers acting on behalf of the defendants in this case? Do you remember being told that?
A.
Say that again.
Q.
Yes.
A.
That the documents.
Q.
That the documents that had come into being?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
When you had been at the police station in January 1996 were going to be given to the lawyers representing the defendants in this case do you remember being told that?
A.
Yes.
Q.
You do?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Can you remember when that was Mr Jasper?
A.
No.
Q.
Earlier this year?
A.
Possibly. A few months back.
Q.
When did you first know you were coming to court to give evidence at this trial? Today is Friday?
A.
When the prison service was poking me in the back saying, "get up, you've got to go to court".
Q.
Was that earlier this week?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Before this week did you know you would be giving evidence at this trial?
A.
No.
Q.
Had anybody contacted you?
A.
Um, I think the solicitors did.
Q.
Which solicitors? Do you remember?
A.
Defence.
Q.
When was that?
A.
That was through the probation service.
Q.
Do you remember when?
A.
Um, what, that I was coming to court?
Q.
Do you remember when you got this information that solicitors were trying to contact you through the probation service? How long before this week did that happen?
A.
Um, a couple of days.
Q.
Are you still a frightened man, Mr Jasper?
A.
I think everyone is frightened of something.
Q.
Are you?
A.
Not most things.
Q.
Would you describe yourself at present as a frightened man?
A.
To a certain degree.
Q.
Has anybody spoken to you in prison about this case?
A.
No.
Q.
No?
A.
No.
Q.
Sure about that?
A.
What, other inmates or staff?
Q.
Inmates.
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
What about while you have been at court?
A.
Has anyone talked to me about it?
Q.
Yes, downstairs.
A.
No.
Q.
Nobody?
A.
Just the person that the judge sent down.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
That was the lawyer?
A.
The lawyer.
MR McGUINNESS:
You have not been threatened at all?
A.
No, not at all.
Q.
Is that right? Is that what you say?
A.
(The witness nodded).
MR MUNDAY:
I wonder whether the Crown might just have five minutes to take some instructions.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Yes, but only five minutes.
(The Court adjourned for a short time) (In the presence of the jury)
MR McGUINNESS:
My Lord, thank you very much for the time. It has proved fruitful. I have no further questions. Thank you.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
Yes, Mr Parkins.
Re-examined by MR PARKINS QC:
MR PARKINS:
I am obliged, my Lord. Mr Jasper, going to the night that you went with the man into this lane, I am not going to take you all through it again, you were asked by my friend about what the man was wearing when he got out of the car. You remember you told us that he was wearing a tracksuit top and bottoms and gloves.
A.
(The witness nodded).
Q.
They are those hospital type gloves that you described earlier are they?
A.
That's right.
Q.
What you were not asked: what was he wearing on his feet?
A.
Trainers.
Q.
Now, moving on from that night, tell the jury this. Before you returned in January 1996 was the visit that you had made to that precise location in Rettendon the only visit?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
The visit you have told the jury you went on was clearly in darkness?
A.
That is correct.
Q.
Finding your way of course by the use of the car's headlights and what other light there was, yes?
A.
And a bit of direction.
Q.
Direction from whom?
A.
From the passenger.
Q.
You were asked many questions about the first time you took the police there on 15th January. I would like you to tell the jury this. What time of the day or night was that: dark or daylight?
A.
Daylight.
Q.
You twice I think used an expression including the words getting your "bearings".
A.
Probably.
Q.
With the police officers in their vehicle, is that what you were trying to do?
A.
Yeah.
Q.
Did it make it any easier the fact that you are now in an area in daylight as opposed to somewhere that you have been in the dark?
A.
Yes.
Q.
It is a bit easier but you were concentrating on what you have answered on this particular area around Rettendon; is that right?
A.
Yes, because of the dark, it's like you just look for certain things. Certain things stick in your mind. They look different during the day.
Q.
And the place at which you ended up with the police officers, was that the spot at which you had ended up with the man on the night that you have been talking about?
A.
By down the lane by the two gates.
Q.
Say again?
A.
Down the lane by the two gates.
Q.
Again, of course I cannot ask you anything that was said between you and the man, I do not go anywhere near it. When you were talking to the police in January about this matter, I think you have told us you did name names of people involved; is that right?
A.
That's right.
Q.
Why did you do that? Just tell the jury why you named names as opposed to making up names.
A.
Well because it's not made up.
Q.
Because it is not made up. Unless your Lordship has questions.
MR JUSTICE HIDDEN:
No, thank you.
MR PARKINS:
Thank you very much, Mr Jasper.
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