31/01/2021
In Conversation with Thanglianpau, President, Zomi Re-Unification Organisation (ZRO)
INTERVIEWER: First of all, Sia Pau, can you please tell us your name, background, and current position?
SIA PAU: My name is Thang Lian Pau. Currently, I am the President of the ZRO. During the '88 Uprising in Burma, I took part as a student leader, and when the All Party System was adopted the Zomi National Congress was founded and I acted as the General Secretary. In the 1990 election, I contested in the Tonzang Constituency and was elected as the MP. Thereafter, when our brothers from India contacted me to lead the people I readily agreed and since 1993, I started taking part in the organization.
INTERVIEWER: Can you tell us more about ZRO and what it stands for?
SIA PAU: ZRO stands for Zomi Re-Unification Organization. Some people misunderstood the term ‘Zomi’. What is Zomi? From our perspectives (ZRO’s) and through various researches, we categorize all Zo descendants as Zomi. In Burma, the British and Burmese recognize us as ‘Chin’. In India, Bengali and the British recognize us as ‘Kuki’, ‘Lushai’ in Mizoram, ‘Bom' or 'Chakma’ in Bangladesh. However, the term ‘Zo' or 'Zomi’ is our indigenous name. The terms Lushai, Kuki, Chin are imposed names by others. So all Zo descendants are Zomi. Re-unification is used because in the past the Zo descendants or Zomi, they are not separated and confined in an area. However, when the British occupied our lands, Zo descendants in India and Burma were under British administration. In the end, Bangladesh, Burma, and India became separate countries. During that time, without the consent of our forefathers and unwillingly, Zo descendants are divided. Some ending up in Bangladesh, some in India, and some in erstwhile Burma. To unite all the Zo descendants under one political unit, therefore, the term ‘re-unification’ is used. We already know what organization is, it means ‘Pawlpi’.
INTERVIEWER: Then re-unification as one political unit is the main objective of the organization its goal. What is the strategy here? I mean, we (Zomi in India) are not the only ones who desire reunification. Chin, Kuki, and Mizo, I believe, desire for reunification. Can you tell us a little bit about the steps taken by the ZRO toward the process of reunification?
SIA PAU: As we say before, we all desire re-unification as we are from the same progenitor. That’s why we need to re-unite as one country, one political unit. This is desired not only by us but Zo descendants in India, particularly, MNF (Mizo National Front). To this day, the Mizo under ZORO (Zo Reunification Organisation) is still propagating for Zo re-unification. Likewise in Burma, re-unification is in our minds. For example, In India, under the leadership of Go Khen Pau in the 1960s, a memorandum for the reunification of Zo descendants was submitted to the then Prime Minister of India. It was desired by all (Zo descendants in India, Burma, and Bangladesh). Even the ZRO, when it was first founded in 1993 -- let me backtrack a bit here. To start the organization, four leaders from India along with me went to Burma by foot, and there it was formed. At Phapein (ph) Village within Kachin State, our organization was formed by the end of April. Then we went from Kachin to China, and from Samma City in China back to Kachin State in Burma at the Headquarter of KIO (Kachin Independence Organisation)/KIA (Kachin Independence Army) at Laiza we had a meeting with the Kachin representatives and came back, officially starting the organization. On September 6th, 1993, a memorandum was submitted to the then Prime Minister of India stating that we, the Zo descendants, in Bangladesh, India, and Burma desire to unite under one political unit so we need your help. Having said that, currently, physically or geographically, uniting is a challenge but that’s the goal of the organization. At the moment, we are still laying foundations in Burma and India. What we can do right now is to open up dialogues and unite everyone culturally and morally. Today, we are happy to say that we have achieved that. However, in terms of geographical unification, since we are separated by international boundaries we are working towards that. Hopefully, we’ll find a way. In India, we already have Mizoram in India. In Manipur, we will achieve a political status and in Burma, a federal state. These will all lead to geographical unification.
INTERVIEWER: Going back, who are the Zomi and where do they come from, where do they live and what is their approximate population?
SIA PAU: The Zo descendants or Zomi are of Tibeto-Burman or Mongolian descent. We are part of the Tibeto-Burman group of people. Generally, it is said that we hailed from Yunnan Province in China. As I said before, we are then further sub-categorized such as Chin in Burma. What is Chin? Our people are cultivators who carry bamboo baskets on our backs.
INTERVIEWER: Seng (bamboo basket)?
SIA PAU: Yes, we carry a bamboo basket. The Burmese call the bamboo basket chin. When the Burmese asked what tribe are you, our people misinterpreted it to mean what are you carrying and therefore replied chin. That is how the Burmese came to call us Chin. And some of our people who went into India were called by mainland Indians and the Bengali as Kuki, even to this day. And those in Mizoram due to our long uncut hair we are called Lusei, meaning long hair people or people with oval heads. I say all this to say that these are all imposed names, names given to us by others. When we were in China, we had a dynasty called Zo (Zhou) Dynasty. From there, we slowly migrated out of China to now settle where we are today. We were known by different names by different people. We still use the name given to us by the British and some even adopted their family names as their tribe names. Frankly speaking, we still hold on to these imposed names rather than our own names. Because of that, some call us Chin, some call us Kuki and some call us Lushai. All these are imposed names given to us by others. Our real name is Zo or Zomi. The term ‘Zo’ is not simply used, it is used because we are the descendants of Zo. Like I said before, from Yunnan Province we came all the way here since the Zo (Zhou) dynasty. Unfortunately, to this day some of us still hold on to these imposed names.
INTERVIEWER: I got two questions here. Firstly, is it true that the Zomi movement is started not as an armed movement?
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: The idea arises first. Putting aside Tun Kho Pum era and going to when Zomi National Congress was founded in Burma, it was as a political party, right?
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: So before it functioned as a political party, our people didn’t use Zomi as a political identity, we call ourselves Zomi but not as a movement, right?
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: What is the significance of the organization transitioning from a political movement to a revolutionary armed group or armed movement or what is the difference between the Zomi movement as a political party or as an armed movement? Since you have taken an active role in both political and armed movement, is the transition because you thought that we need guns to function as a movement in the Indian-Burmese border region, or is it that the Zomi movement is not enough for the time being and for the sake of the nation and its future that you thought we need to pick up guns, can you tell us the reason behind that transition?
SIA PAU: We didn’t need to pick up arms just because it is called the Zomi movement. A movement can either be a violent or non-violent movement. For example, around 1950 in Chin State, Burma, to unite all Zomi Christians, Pastors from Falam, Khalkha (Haka) and Tedim had a meeting and formed the Zomi Baptist Convention. Even before Burmese independence we already have our own Zo literature. Our forefathers never identified themselves as Chin, our forefathers called themselves Zomi, not Tedim or Thangkhal but Zomi, Zo literature, Zogam (Zo land). This is how they identify themselves. But when it comes to our people in India, around 1915, the government asked for us to make a tribe-wise recognition which led to the split into many tribes. On February 20, 1982, at Daizang near Lamka town, Pu T. Gougin founded ZNC and started the Zomi movement on this side (India). This Zomi movement is not exactly political but functioned as an organization to mobilize the Zo people. But from my point of view, though this organization is a revolutionary one, without picking up arms we won’t be respected and our voices won’t be heard. For example, before ZRO was started in the Manipur side, during the 1960’s Pu Go Khen Pau has already started a movement called Chin Re-unification to united Zo descendants. Since then, the memorandum has been given to the Prime Minister. Memorandum for the 6th Schedule request would have piled up. Likewise, ATSUM (All Tribal Students' Union Manipur) and Zomi Council also submitted memoranda. The only reply we got was an acknowledgment that we have seen your memorandum. In India, picking up arms is necessary. We need to protect ourselves from those around us and from another small tribe just like us who has armed themselves. We need to arm ourselves to protect ourselves and in order to prevent others from provoking and undermining us. Arming ourselves is for protection as well as to widen our scope of work. It was only then that the Burmese government and Indian government started taking us seriously. The recent outcome of this is the signing of the Suspension of Operation (SoO) with the Indian government. Currently, the government is asking us what we want. Even though our main goal is reunification, looking at the Manipur context, we laid out some requests to the government. As of today, we are having a point by point and in-person talks with the appointed interlocutor. This is the result of arming ourselves and this is the difference between armed and non-armed organizations.
INTERVIEWER: Is there an exact moment that drives or motivates you to take part in the Zomi movement and Zomi politics? Is it your desire since your childhood or is there an incident, a speech by our leaders, or books that you read that made you decide to become a full-time nationalist?
SIA PAU: For me, I’ve always been interested in nationalism since my childhood and took an active part in the national movement. But one thing that fuelled my interest in nationalism is like in Burma, when I went to university and interacted with other students and realized how underdeveloped we are and see how others view us, it motivated me to work for the nation. I even prayed when I was joining the ZRO. My parents wanted me to go to seminary. I told them to wait till I finished my studies here in Burma. Working as a Pastor is not the only way to serve God. If we look in the Bible, from Moses to Aaron, they are not pastors or priests, they are nationalists. When Israelites left Egypt, the priests that carry the Ark of the Covenant went first and the people were to follow 400 feet apart from behind. That is how it was in the past. But now it’s all reversed. I prayed to God for the nation as I believe being a nationalist is also one way of serving God. If nationalism is not important, God won’t send his Son, Jesus, to save the Israelites not only spiritually but also from enslavement. So being a nationalist is also one way of doing God's works. I am willing to suffer for the cause of nationalism. One day I will die, but if my death is of any significance for the nation, that is all I hope for. This is the reason I joined the organization and I have no other expectation. I will do what I can and the rest is for the next generation. My conviction is that they will continue the fight. If I was to rely on my own knowledge, there are people who are much more educated and knowledgeable. I am not the most knowledgeable. However, I consider myself one of the most patriotic persons, and this is the only reason why I still am able to lead the movement. None will be willing to lead the movement if they were to rely on their assets and knowledge. It is only because of my patriotism and nationalism that I dedicated my life to the organization.
INTERVIEWER: Are we the latest to pick up arms among the insurgency groups in North-East India? Different names like insurgence group, rebel group, militant or underground are given to such movements as ours, and not one can we name that is successful since the inception of ZRO in 1993. MNF (Mizo National Front) being an exception but only achieved statehood. What is your view on revolutionary politics in North-East India not only ZRO but as a whole? For example, those revolutionary groups started with a good cause but after 10 years, they are now acting just like a tax collector or extortionist groups. Can you talk to us a little bit about the challenges and hardship faced by these movements in North-East India and is revolutionary politics the only way to fuel a movement?
SIA PAU: Revolutionary organizations spring up like mushrooms in the North-East region. Each organization has its own aims and objectives. You talked about MNF success, but that is not their goal, but a statehood gained as a result of negotiation. Likewise, other organizations also started forming having their own aims and objectives but all of them are not the same. Some have good aims and objectives but ended up achieving nothing. Among the Meitei in Manipur, the first armed group PLA (People's Liberation Army) took an initiative toward political and social change. PLA’s were well organized. The members didn’t smoke or chew pan and they only pick up arms later as far as I know. Now, look at the Nagas, they have clear-cut aims and objectives and I believe will get some success for Nagas in Assam, Arunachal, and Manipur. Generally, most insurgencies in the North-East region have their own aims and objectives. Most of the political movements submitted memoranda to the Indian government, which were received but no action was taken. Talks only occurred when these groups armed themselves. For this reason, some groups armed themselves so as to start talks with the government. These groups still go after their aims and objective to this date, whether they will achieve or not is up to God. Even though insurgency groups are abundant in Manipur, only a few of them have proper aims and objectives and are well organized. There may be some exceptional cases, where small insurgent groups are formed just to collect tax and were used as a livelihood by some. I won’t name names. But there are three to four tribal insurgency groups in Manipur taking legitimate steps to achieve their goals. For example, in the North-East region, Karbi in Assam are fighting because they are still under the old 6th Schedule Provision but have now surpassed our organization. Maybe they have good co-ordination, we don’t know, but they’ve started talks with the government. Among some of the revolutionary organizations that have sprung up, one or two amongst the Naga, among us, Zo descendants, amongst the Karbi or Garo, they all started with good intention. On the other, why do small insurgency groups arise? The rise of small insurgency groups is the work of the Indian intelligence group to weaken the above said revolutionary group. Many groups are formed this way but most of the organizations are formed with good aims and objectives.
INTERVIEWER: So what you’re saying is that Indian intelligence is responsible for the formation of many of the insurgency groups in the North-East area, right?
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: Was the same strategy followed by the Burmese government?
SIA PAU: Yes, it’s the same in Burma. For example, the Karen National Union (KNU) is very powerful. KNU comprised of people from both Christians and Buddhist faiths. When Burma was under the military junta in 1988, priorities were given to the Buddhist side and were given arms to fight KNU. Such practice is pervasive. But many of the groups in the Northeast are formed by government intelligence. It’s not that common in Burma. It was done only with Kachin and Karen which have become too powerful. The government provided guns and let them clashed with each other. The Burmese army just watched in silence.
INTERVIEWER: Let’s go back to when you’re in Burma, you’ve known Aung San Suu Kyi during your times as student leader, right. How is your view on Aung San Suu Kyi, her becoming a state councilor, what she has done for her country after she was under house arrest for a long time? International media had a great interest in her life.
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: From knowing her, will there be any benefit for the Zomi if Burma truly becomes a democratic country under her? I said this because democracy depends on numbers. Most of her supporters and voters in her constituency were Buddhist-Burmese, and she won’t go against their interests. Even today, looking at the Rohingya crisis, she remained silent and got a lot of criticism for that. Under that context, even if Burma became a democracy under Aung San Suu Kyi and her party NLD (National League for Democracy), do you believe there will be many benefits for the Zomi?
SIA PAU: Regarding Burma, my view is this, since 1980, leadership training was done amongst the students and youths. And what happened just before the 1988 Uprising is demonetization occurred. There were about 500 students amongst the Zo descendent which I led them into a mass rally while protest or mass rally was not allowed. During the 1988 crisis, Aung San Suu Kyi who was aboard arrived. Being Aung San’s daughter, Suu Kyi is patriotic, and when she returned we chose her to lead instead of someone else in the hope that she will bring about democracy. I have known her since then. When NLD first started, I was active for about two weeks but realized that we can only voice our issues only if we have a Zomi party. Even if we stayed in NLD, it will be difficult to voice our concerns and opinions, and our own leaders can hijack our national agenda. That is why we need a national platform of our own. When we look back, yes, Aung San Suu Kyi was on house arrest for a long time, but because she is patriotic and followed her father’s footsteps, she did not give up. In the 1990 election, NLD secured more than 82% vote and was very strong but she was on house arrest. What I see is that she grew up in a foreign democratic country and cannot see the junta's shrewd political strategy. In an interview, when asked what the NLD will do with the military, they suggested they will take them to a Nuremberg-type court. That's when everything changed. The NLD thought they could simply take revenge and punish the military if they win the election. When Aung San Suu Kyi started talking openly as if she was in a democratic country, she was slowly restricted by the military junta. But in the end, I think she started learning the ways and means of the Burmese government and in 2015 won the election. She is the first and incumbent State Counsellor (a position equivalent to prime minister) of Myanmar. But according to the Burmese constitution, 1/4 would be from the Army and it should have one party they support. Even with that, they won the election. But now, she did not take decisions as she wants but is very cautious with the Army's opinions. And for this reason, she is criticized by some of her followers, ‘Aung San Suu Kyi is not what we hoped for’. Even us the highlanders like Kachin, Karen, Rakhine, and Zomi weren’t satisfied with her ruling. She tried changing the constitution two or three times at the parliament but failed. If she was to govern as she likes, a military coup will happen again. Even now, the military holds three very important portfolios - defense, border, and development. If they’re unsatisfied, they will cause problems and a military coup will happen. Because she is too cautious, even the international community misread her reaction on the Rohingya crisis, Kachin issue, and others. The army let all the blames fall on Aung San Suu Kyi. They did not know the full story. In Burma, there are leaders who hold more power than the President or the Prime Minister. She realized that if she was to act against those in power, she would be removed and had taken all the blame so far, that’s how I see it. I know she is a trustworthy person.
INTERVIEWER: You were an elected MP in Burma and had taken part in its political system and also, since the start of the Zomi Re-unification Organization in 1993, you have been dealing with the Indian political system. In the process of re-unifying the Zomi in Burma and India, what is the difference in dealing with the Burmese and Indian governments? How does the government see the Zomi movement, what is the response from the Army, the Indian intelligence body, or even the government compared to that of the Burmese government?
SIA PAU: Their view on the ZRO?
INTERVIEWER: Yes, on ZRO?
SIA PAU: To compare, we still have armed movement in Burma but we did not directly criticize or target the government, but they recognize us. The common perspective in Burma is that if we are armed, then we are seen as an insurgency, a rebel group. But for now, their desire for a ceasefire has been met and their actual goal doesn’t appear to be achievable. A ceasefire was made with Upper Burma while they still fight with Lower Burma. And sometimes peace with Lower Burma and fight with Upper Burma. Likewise, in India, ZRO is armed. We are considered as an armed insurgency with aims and objectives but not as a rebel group. It is for their defense. Since the inception of ZRO till now, we have been in contact with IB, RAW, and MI. We were not against the Indian government. We are fighting for our rights. We are not considered as rebel groups, we are not outlawed. But it has only been 10 years since they took notice of the demands we put forth.
INTERVIEWER: So is the aims and objectives of the Zomi more achievable under the constitution or political system of India? Since India recognized that we are fighting for our rights and not just a rebel group whereas, in Burma, all armed groups are considered enemies of the state. So is it your view that achieving the aims and objective of the Zomi is more achievable on the Indian side?
SIA PAU: Armed groups in Burma functioned as separatist groups because they are all based on the 1947 Panglong Agreement. On this side, especially, ZRO in Manipur, India, even though ZRO is an armed group, most of us function in the background. We have some who are working for the public. Moreover, we have long terms and short terms policies in Manipur and Burma region. Here, we are not asking for a separate state from India. We are looking for benefits from the Indian government for those of us who are under the Indian constitution. We are fighting for our rights and to protect our land under the Indian constitution. We want to enjoy those rights not only to protect our land and our people but also to enjoy the same development. If Delhi is developed like this, why are the Zomi so far behind? We can be at their level. Some view that insurgency group is due to poor development. Developing these areas will solve the problem. But that is not the reality. For development to occur, we need good politics. To achieve good politics, we need to safeguard our constitutional rights. If that’s not the case, how did the three-bill issue arise in 2015 from the Meitei in Manipur? This is done so as to ignore the tribal in Manipur and extend their land by the majority (Meitei). If we have constitutional safeguards, there will be no issue such as the three-bills. For example, if we get Territorial Council based on the 6th Schedule Provision and exercise the Judicial, administrative, financial, and others, we will be governed under democratic law. No law or bill can be made over us against our will. For this reason, we need constitutional safeguards here in Manipur. We cannot do bigger things without having first a good foundation. How can we study or work if we are hungry? So as to eat and clothe ourselves, and enjoy development, all we need constitutional safeguards. Regardless of how big or small we are, the Zo descendants in Manipur need political autonomy and self-determination. That is how we see it and that is our current situation today.
INTERVIEWER: Are you saying that to have a strong Zomi movement strong development is required or is the Zomi movement too weak because of our poor economy? We still lack the numbers compared to others and economically we are weak. So is it because we are poor the movement is stagnant or even when there is development the movement is still the same. Is politics leading the economy or the economy leading the politics?
SIA PAU: It is like this. To fight a war, we need to be fed well. For example, we are like Communist. I don’t think we need to have a hunger strike and sit-in protest like in a democracy. We should feed ourselves and fight. Getting to your point, for a good development to occur, we need our constitutional rights, we need good policy and politics. If the politics is good, only then will development follow. Now, with bad politics, we may get a project worth crore of rupees for development, but that won't last. When the project ends, what is there for the next generation? More than that, we need a good policy to safeguard our constitutional rights. For example, let’s look at the Bodo people. They have Bodo Territorial Council which controls all the high schools and universities. Here in Manipur, we have Autonomous District Council, we control up to Class 8. The power difference is large. Even under the 6th Schedule Provisions, they changed the name to BTC (Bodo Territorial Council) and hold more power. They manage their own development programs. Universities and colleges are under their administration. If our policy is good, and we have constitutional safeguards in place -- if we were to achieve Zoland Territorial Council then we would have gained the above-said provisions. We don’t need to go to the Central Government in Delhi and ask for funds. We can utilize the TC fund.
INTERVIEWER: While we are still talking about Manipur, the Zomi movement in India and Burma, which is an across-international boundary, can you tell us more about the steps taken and the current stage of the Zomi movement in Manipur?
SIA PAU: Non-Naga insurgencies in Manipur are called Zomi-Kuki insurgencies. Those who like the term ‘Kuki' or ‘Zomi’. That’s how we are functioning. Simply put, in 2005, we had SoO with Defence. In 2008, with Manipur and the Indian government. After eight years, the BJP government appointed an interlocutor. After some changes, currently, AB Mathur is the interlocutor. We have nine sittings with the government. The 9th sitting occurred on 25th June 2019 called Kuki-Zomi Territorial Council. We cannot finalize the official name. We demanded a Territorial Council based on the 6th Schedule Provision. We had a point to point and face to face discussion for three hours. Currently, talks with the Manipur government as well as the central government are progressing smoothly.
INTERVIEWER: What you have said before and the steps are taken in Manipur are going hand in hand, right?
SIA PAU: Yes.
INTERVIEWER: The short term goal of the Zomi movement is the Kuki-Zomi Territorial Council, right?
SIA PAU: Yes. But the movement is not going to stop here. For the Zo people based here in Manipur, India, this is what we can achieve as of now and we feel it’s a good foundation to start with.
INTERVIEWER: Lastly, can you share your views on the future of the Zomi movement, what can we achieve and what are difficulties we face?
SIA PAU: As I said before, the term ‘Kuki’ or ‘Chin’ is just imposed name. We are Zo descendants, and the Zo people movement or Zomi movement will not end this easily. Whether we achieve our goal soon or later is a different discussion. For example, even when I’m gone, the Zomi movement will go generations after generations. It may even get stronger than the present generation. When people are developed, we know our rights and we realize we can be just like others. For example, we deserve to get independence. If we unite the Zo descendants from Burma, Bangladesh, Mizoram, Assam, and Manipur in India, we can form a nation. But right now we are currently dealing in the Manipur context. One political solution is not a solution for all Zo descendants. If we achieve a federal state in Burma, statehood in Mizoram, ADC, or others in Assam, that is the solution for that area. I want the public to know that there is a solution for all Zo descendants that are waiting for us. Some people here in Manipur thought that our talks with the government are the final solution. This is just the beginning. We will work harder and move forward. After we harvest the field, we will have food and we will become stronger. Thank you.
INTERVIEWER: Thank you.
